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, and kelly ayott, all had vowed to block her nomination after what she said about the deadly attack on americans on n benghazi, libya. here's what graham said moments ago when the meeting came to a close. >> if you don't know what happened, just say you don't know what happened. people can push you to give explanations and you can say i don't want to give bad information. here's what i can tell you -- the american people got bad information on 16, september. they got bad information from president obama days after. and the question is should they have been giving the information at all. if you can do nothing but give bad information, isn't it better to give no information at all? >> ah. let's go straight to cnn's dana bash. so before we heard that pretty explosive news conference, it seemed as though there was a bit of a softening of some of the gop's opposition to ms. rice's moving up in the president's cabinet. now after hearing that, i need to get some clarity if i can from you about whether the criticism is about ms. rice and what she delivered to the american people, which turn
want to ask you about susan rice, she is meeting with senators mccain, graham, and ayott. do you think she has explaining to do with what she said about benghazi? and would you support her if she is nominated for secretary of state? >> she's not yet been nominated. so i'm going to look carefully at her credentials, which i think qualify her very well to be nominated. i think she's done a very good job at the united nations. i do think she's explained that what she said about benghazi was the intelligence that she was given. and she'll have an opportunity as she meets with senators to further explain that position. >> do you think they're open to giving her a fair hearing? because some pretty tough things have been said about her. >> well, it's unfortunate that much of that discussion has gotten so personal. she does need to get a fair hearing. i'm hopeful senator mccain is a patriot, i think he'll give her a fair hearing. i'm certain my colleague from new hampshire, and of lindsey graham. so i do believe that it's in the country's interest to give her a fair hearing and to let her expl
director mike morrell met with john mccain, lindsey graham and kelly ayotte over what rice knew the in the days after the deadly consulate attack in benghazi. all three claim to be more troubled after this meeting. >> we're significantly troubled by many of the answers that we got and some that we didn't get. >> bottom line, i'm more disturbed now than i was before that the 16th september explanation about how four americans died by ambassador rice, i think, does not do justice to the reality at the time. >> clearly the impression that was begin, the information begin to the american people was wrong. in fact, ambassador rice said today, absolutely, it was wrong. >> and within the past hour the white house once again defended ambassador rice. >> focus on some might say obsession made on comments made on sunday shows seems, to me, and to many, to be misplaced. >> and the ambassador herself made this statement only a short time ago. it read in part, quote, i appreciated the opportunity to discuss these issues directly and structurive wi them. the administration remains committed t
cain, lindsey graham, and kelly ayotte criticized explanations rice given in the past and obviously today and on the attack in benghazi the meeting doesn't appear to help smooth away for rice's widely anticipated nomination as secretary of state. here is senator ayotte moments ago ago. >> when you have a position where your ambassador to the united nations you go well beyond unclassified talking points in your daily preparations and responsibilities for that job and that is troubling to me. jenna: kelly wright, live in washington with more. kelly, the three senators just held the news briefing which we played a little bit from kelly ayotte. tell us generally what was their response? what sort of reaction they had to what they heard inside that closed-door meeting? >> reporter: let's stay on focus on that because that is really telling. each senator saw the tone being stunned by the information they heard in this closed-door meeting with u.n. ambassador susan rice. they are significantly troubled they say, more than that ever, which means there are more questions than answers as a result o
explained that her initial account was wrong because: senator kelly ayotte, republican of new hampshire, says rice should have known better. >> but one of her responsibilities as ambassador to the u.n. she receives daily intelligence briefings and certainly confirmed today that she had received the briefing-- the briefings leading up to this that were on a classified basis. >> reporter: the white house hasn't said when or if rice will get the nomination. but in a news conference two weeks ago, mr. obama seemed to be preparing for a fight. >> if senator john mccain and senator graham and others want to go after somebody they should go after me. and i'm happy to have that discussion with them. >> reporter: senator ayotte said she would be willing to put a hold on a rice nomination which, under senate rules, means it would likely never come up for approval and effectively be dead. scott? >> pelley: margaret, thank you. who is susan rice? she held several positions in the collation on the national security council as an expert on african affairs and then as assistant secretary of state. ric
mccain, lindsey graham, kelly ayotte. she will be back up there today to meet with other senators. the deadline from yesterday's meetings is that those three are still not satisfied. kelly ayotte says she will try to block the conversation of susan rice or another nominee to succeed the departing secretary of state clinton until more information is given on the benghazi attacks in libya. also, france to go in favor of bid.tinians's u.n. the french government said it would vote in favor of the palestinians ' bid of non- member status. how would you fix your school system? we have a couple minutes left. larry in jackson, mississippi, independent. caller: good morning. newly appointed superintendent, i met with yesterday. we have 30,000 students and 2000 are homeless. 70% of our schools in the city, i visited alternative schools where we had the bus driver and security guards running the alternative schools. we have teachers who are failing these students and failed those students' parents and grandparents. they've been in the school system's 25 for 30 years. we accept this. we fired
ayotte and their crusade against susan rice yesterday. dave writes in -- >> bill: yesterday. it has been on-going. >> yesterday they put themselves out in front of the camera again. dave says mccain and graham have backed themselves into a corner. if they back off now, they would lose more face than they already have. pat says mccain, graham, shut your damn mouths. quit compromising american security. >> yes. >> honey bear kelly who has the best name on twitter says -- we were saying one of the issues -- >> bill: is that honey bear kelly ayotte? >> no. not honey bear kelly ayotte. we were saying one of the issues would be if obama was to appoint john kerry then scott brown might weasel his way back into the senate. honey bear kelly says scott brown just lost an election. does anyone think he can win one now? that's a valid point. he's a loser. >> bill: what do you think of the campaign against susan rice? >> i have found it incredibly offensive. you are talking about a rhodes scholar, somebody who has 20
lindsey graham, kelly ayotte and -- >> they were upset. john mccain over the weekend. >> john mccain backed up. >> so it's really cool when she said i'm sorry. >> she did the brave thing and went right in there and said i want to -- >> how did that work. >> and talked about her initial account of the attack and explained to them she was relying on faulty intelligence and talking points from the intelligence community. >> they said? >> they said, you know what, we still don't get it. >> throw the video. >> we are significantly troubled by many of the answers that we got and some that we didn't get. it is clear that the information that she gave the american people was incorrect. >> bottom line, i'm more disturbed now than i was before. >> if you don't know what happened just say you don't know what happened. people can push you to give explanations and i want to say -- >> i'm more troubled today knowing having met with the acting director of the cia and ambassador rice. clearly the impression that was given, the information given to the american people was wrong, in fact, ambassad
cain, ayotte and graham who criticized her original comments on the deadly benghazi attacks. i picture the conversation between the president and rice going like this. we want you as secretary of state, so go make nice. answer their questions so they stop attacking you and threatening to block your possible nomination. yeah, so how did that work out? >> we are significantly troubled by many of the answers that we got and some that we didn't get. it is clear that the information that she gave the american public was incorrect. >> bottom line, i'm more disturbed now than i was before with a little bit of inquiry and curiosity, i think it would be pretty clear that to explain this episode as related to a video that created a mob that turned into a riot was far afield. if you can do nothing but give bad information, isn't it better to give no information at all? >> i'm more troubled today. just to be clear, when you have a position where you're ambassador to the united nations, you go well beyond unclassified talking points in your daily preparation and responsibilities for that job. that'
with ayotte and graham and mccain coming out to talk about the fact that they're meeting with ambassador rice leaves them scratching their heads and with more questions? of course people want more answers to what happened in benghazi, but it's not up to ambassador rice. she's not fronting the investigation. >> no, but she's been part of that team that went on those sunday shows to talk act those issues to say it was a video that caused this. whether it was the talking points or the intelligence, she's the one in front of the tv cameras that said this. this is an audition to be the country's top diplomat. she's going into a hostile group, we would want her to have a better relationship after, not worse. she had three senators she knew she wasn't in a great relationship with. they seemed to be more open to her over the weekend. she went into a meeting and made it worse. regardless of what you think about susan rice -- >> were they really going to listen to her and come out and be, like, oh, god, we love susan rice now? i don't think that was ever going to be the backside of that meeting. >> no.
ayotte have been vocal critics of rice accusing the ambassador of misleading the public when she said five days after the deadly benghazi attack, there was no evidence it was preplanned. >> we're going to get to the bottom of this. we have to have a system we can trust. and if you don't know what happened, just say you don't know what happened. >> reporter: rice needs the senate support if president obama chooses her to be the next secretary of state. ambassador rice met with lawmakers in a secure room behind this group of cameras here on capitol hill to discuss classified information. an aide to senator john mccain says she requested the meeting. afterwards, rice issued a statement saying the talking points the intelligence community gave her were incorrect and that at no time did she or anyone in the obama administration intend to mislead the american people. the white house worked to reinforce that tuesday. >> ambassador rice has no responsibility for collecting, analyzing and providing intelligence. >> reporter: acting cia director michael morrell joined rice's capitol hill meetin
cain, lindsey graham from john mccain, lindsey graham and kelly ayotte after their meeting with ambassador rice. >> we are significantly troubled by many of the answers that we got. >> bottom line, i'm more disturbed now than before. >> i'm more troubled today. >> senator mccain's embarrassing past with libya includes a meeting in tripoli in 2009 with gadhafi to discuss the possible delivery of military equipment to that dictator at his side at that meeting, as usual of course, was lindsey graham. also joining him was senator joe lieberman. today sh after meeting with ambassador rice, joe lieberman chose not to join the baseless criticism of ambassador rice. >> based on what she has said as clearly as possible, backed up by the director of the cia, i think it wouldn't be fair to disqualify her based on what she said. >> ambassador rice released this statement after meeting with the republican senators. while we certainly wish we had >> ambassador rice released this statement after meeting with the republican senators. joining me now, msnbc's karen finney and howard fineman. howard, what is your
, mccain, graham and ayotte. >> don't we all have the responsibility before we go out and talk to the american people on all five sunday morning shows for verifying those facts are true? >> the most basic information about what happened on the night of the attack, and what survivors had to say after the attack is not being provided and we'll talk more about that. bill: so you wonder then whether or not they will get the answers they're looking for. whether or not some of these questions will lead to even more questions. they will sit down in about 20 minutes from now. kelly wright is live in washington there. kelly, you're covering this morning. what is the expectation from this meeting on the hill? >> reporter: the expectations bill, they will get down to the bottom of this. at least that's what they will try to do. that is the most fundamental thing to these republican senators. they want to find out exactly what susan rice knew, before, during and after that attack. she has emerged, by the way as a frontrunner and possibly being nominated for secretary of state. if so, she w
ayotte. she went to address concerns they have over statements the ambassador made over the u.s. mission in benghazi on september 11th that left ambassador chris stevens and three other americans dead. i want you to listen to what senator graham, republican south carolina, here, said immediately after the meeting ended. >> bottom line, i'm more disturbed now than i was before that the 16 september explanation about how four americans died in benghazi, libya, by ambassador rice, i think does not do justice to the reality at the time, and in hindsight clearly was completely wrong. but here's the key. in real time, it was a statement disconnected from reality. >> and now here is senator ayotte. >> i want to say that i'm more troubled today, knowing -- having met with the acting director of the cia and ambassador rice, because it's certainly clear from the beginning that we knew that those with ties to al qaeda were involved in the attack on the embassy. and clearly the impression that was given, the information given to the american people, was wrong. in fact, ambassador rice said today, ab
, senators lindsey graham and kelly ayotte. they've been conciliatory gestures on both sides the past few days. >> i do think that some of the statements he made about me have been unfounded, but i look forward to having the opportunity at the appropriate time to discuss all of this with him. >> i give everyone the benefit of explaining their position and the actions that they took, and i'll be glad to have the opportunity to discuss these issues with her. >> in one sign of the seriousness with which the white house takes rice's defense acting cia director mike morell will accompany her on those senate meetings. remember it's mike morell who wrote the unclassified talking points from the intelligence community that rice was briefed on to use publicly for the sunday talk shows. last night on fox news graham said he intends to ask rice some very direct questions. >> she asked to meet with us, and i will listen to what she has to say about her role in benghazi. i can tell you this, the more i know about benghazi, the more upset i am that the consulate was even open on september 11. the more
mentioned, while senators graham, ayotte and mccain are focused on what susan rice, ambassador rice said on the sunday talk shows, they are not asking any questions at all about the real questions about security there at the consulate in benghazi. that's where their interest and focus and ire should be pointed. not at a u.n. ambassador who went on the sunday talk shows as a spokesperson for the administration giving, imparting the information she was given by the intelligence community. >> and susan, for those just joining us. this happened moments ago in the last hour. i want to remind everyone what the three senators had to say. take a look. >> we are significantly troubled by many of the answers that we got and some that we didn't get. >> bottom line, i'm more disturbed now than i was before that the 16 september explanation about how four americans died in benghazi, libya, by ambassador rice, i think, does not do justice to the reality at the time. >> clearly the impression that was given, the information given to the american people was wrong, in fact, ambassador rice said today abs
of her as a spokesman for the administration. one suspects that senators graham and mccain and ayotte have other reasons for opposing her and are using this as an excuse but it's fairly flimsy because while there are legitimate questions to be asked about what happened in benghazi -- >> but dana, hang on a second. if you have a problem with susan rice, let her be nominated, challenge her, and go through due process. why do this on the basis of intelligence that she had received that's consistent with the information that she was given by the cia? >> not only is it illogical, it is counterproductive because they're putting the president in a position of saying he's going to nominate her if he wasn't before because now he's not going to look like he's caving in or backing down. so they're going to achieve the exact opposite of what they're purporting to want. >> absolutely astonishing. goldie, conservatives, as we know, are attacking ambassador rice for admitting that the initial intelligence was wrong in one respect, that there was no process in benghazi, but she's admitted that the in
being made by mccain, by lindsey graham, and by senator ayotte of new hampshire is that this ambassador to the u.n. went on all the national shows, including "meet the press," in mid-september and basically tried to delay the news because it would get out eventually, that it was al qaeda that launched this attack. does that pass the smell test? that somebody would knowingly do that knowing the truth would be coming out in a matter of days? >> they still don't know who was responsible. there are links to al qaeda, they say, but links is a broad word. those links can take many forms. i think this is all a political red herrings. >> you're with tom ricks on this one. >> the main question is why was the consulate in benghazi still open when the administration, when even the ambassador acknowledged that the threats against the united states was rising and security was -- >> and the answer could be we had cia agents in that area -- >> absolutely. >> -- that needed to be protected. ambassador susan rice met with her strongest critics on capitol hill today to answer questions about benghazi, an
in most parts of the middle east. >> the republicans senators mccain and ayotte will drill down and find out what happened and critics are tough on rice. but the white house is continuing to show strong support. >> ambassador rice has done an excellent job at the united nations and highly qualified for any number of positions in the foreign policy arena and i will leave it at that. >> today's meeting place between ambassador rice and her staunchest critics on capitol hill. after his reelection president obama took exception to republican senators critical of rice saying if they want to come after anyone they should come after me. >> gretchen: we remember that. why is no one talking about susan rice, she went out on the talk shows and got the talking points from the white house and said what they wanted her to say. >> brian: she said the intelligence. >> gretchen: that's why she would be secretary of state. she did what she was asked to do and did it well and it worked with the electorate you could argue and now she will be secretary of state. what is going to stop it? >> steve: not neces
. here is senator ayotte. >> we know from previous information that the class need talking points said clearly that al-qaida -- individuals associated with al-qaida, or with ties to al-qaida r- were involved in the attack. that was then omitted from the unclassified talking points. she had reviewed the classified talking points. when you look at what she said cbs, face the nation, also on "meet the press," not only was that piece omitted, also she said that al-qaida was decimated. martha: this is a new report that claims that benghazi was not the only al-qaida-linked terror attack on september 11th. were some of those other attacks al-qaida inspired or linked. that is a big tor story we are pursuing. we are joined by peter king. chairman of the homeland community. good to see you. >> good to be with you. martha: if susan rice is indeed considered for secretary of state we need to know where she stands on the issue of al-qaida and whether or not she believes that al-qaida is still a threat, is a growing threat. she says they were decimated. perhaps that is the most important thing that
john mccain, lindsey graham and kelly ayotte have been vocal critics of rice, accusing the ambassador of misleading the public when she said five days after the deadly benghazi attack there was no evidence it was preplanned. >> we are going to get to the bottom of this. we have to have a system we can trust. and if you don't know what happened, just say you don't know what happened. >> reporter: rice needs the senate's support if president obama chooses her to become the next secretary of state. ambassador rice met with lawmakers in a secure room behind this group of cameras here on capitol hill to discuss classified information. an aide to senator john mccain tells cbs news she requested the meeting. afterwards, rice issued a statement saying the talking points the intelligence community gave her were incorrect and that at no time did she or anyone in the obama administration intend to mislead the american people. the white house worked to reinforce that tuesday. >> ambassador rice has no responsibility for collecting, analyzing and providing intelligence. >> reporter: acting cia dir
. senators john mccain, lindsey graham and kelly ayotte say they're even more troubled now after meeting with ambassador rice. the attack on libya on september 11 killed the u.s. ambassador, cries stevens and three other americans. five days later, ambassador rice went on the sunday talk shows and said u.s. officials believed it was a spontaneous reaction to protest over an anti-islam video. not a preplanned terrorist attack. first the controversy was over whether the white house made the change in the talking points. but that's past because intelligence officials say they gave ambassador rice those talking points. today senator graham called the information disconnected from reality. >> not only is the information bad and i'm more convinced than ever that it was bad, it was unjustified to give the scenario as presented by ambassador rice and president obama three weeks before an election. >> shepard: rice said while we wish we had had perfect information, just days after the terrorist attack, as is often the case, the intelligence assessment has evolved. neither i nor anyone else in the
the benghazi attack. senator john mccain, lindsey graham, kelly ayotte of new hampshire met privately with her today. it did not go well. listen. >> bottom line, i'm more disturbed now than i was before. information given the american people was wrong. ambassador rice said it was wrong and to be clear, if you are an ambassador to the united nations you go well beyond the unclassified talking points in the daily preparation for that job. >> we are significantly troubled by the answers that many got. some we didn't get. >> she had no intention to mislead the american people. >> the white house blames the critics. listen. >> the focus on some might say the obsession on comments made on sunday shows seems to me and to many to be misplaced. >> the national shows get too much attention. are you surprised that ambassador rice didn't have a better explanation for her interview? >> dana: i got home last night and checked e-mail for the last time and saw she will have a meeting. i said they have it wrapped up. go in and smooth it over. you should have these things organized before you go to a meeting. y
with his shadow, lindsey graham, and their new third amigo, new hampshire senator kelly ayotte, they released a joint statement today, praising the cease-fire declaration, but then adding were for good measure, quote, what happens in the middle east will impact america's vital national security interests for the foreseeable future and stronger, smarter american leadership is desperately needed. smarter leadership! take it from john mccain. remember, john mccain's big idea on foreign policy at the moment is that we should not have a secretary of state at all right now. john mccain suggesting that he will personally block anybody from being confirmed as secretary of state in the second term of the obama administration, because according to john mccain, u.n. ambassador susan rice, who's a likely candidate for secretary of state, she once said something wrong on the sunday shows. in the days after the attack on the u.s. consulate in benghazi, back in september, susan rice went on the sunday shows and gave the administration's intelligence agency-approved talking points, explaining
, will meet with mccain, senators lindsey graham and kelly ayotte on capitol hill. now that mccain is open to the idea of hearings from rice, he's allegedly and he's alleging a white house cover-up on the matter, of course, a narrative already being pushed big-time on fox news. fox of course, has devoted countless hours of air time to the benghazi storybooking guests to channel the conspiracy theory. but today something rare happened. fox news invited pulitzer prize winning journalist thomas risk to share his thoughts about the whole thing. he reports the truth for a living. needless to say his interview was cut short. >> senator john mccain has said in the past he would block any attempt to nominate susan rice to become u.n., i'm sorry, secretary of state. she's currently the u.n. ambassador. he seems to be backing away from that. what do you make of it? >> i think that benghazi generally was hyped by this network especially and that now that the campaign is over, i think he's backing off a little bit. they're not going to stop susan rice from being secretary of state. >> when the you the
. there are unanswered questions. i think john mccain, lindsay gram, kelly ayotte understand it was not susan rice's responsibility but she was the one -- even though she had nothing to do with it, the administration sent her out to paragraphrot talking points that were inaccurate. there were breaches of security, pleas for help that went unanswered, breaches of protocol and four dead americans that were representing all of us. what john mccain and lindsey graham wants are answers. today is a good path, good step toward getting some answers and a step in the right direction. >> so, maria cardona, our democratic strategist, we just had an election. people want democrats and republicans to get along. susan rice clearly is embattled, the source of controversy. should president obama still nominate her as his secretary of state? >> i think he should, if that's what he believes is the best thing for the country. look, she has been an outstanding public servant both at the u.n. and serving under the clinton administration in a national security role. there's no question about that. and i think what -- i
closed doors with three of her most vocal critics, republican senator john mccain, kelly ayotte and lindsey graham talking behind closed doors to discuss classified material. the acting director of the cia, mike morel, is helping her answer questions and will accompany her to other meetings on the hill this week. an aide to mccain tells cbs news that rice requested this meeting last week and it could be decisive. if she answers mccain's questions to his satisfaction, he says he would support her nomination. >> margaret, what do you think those questions will be from the senators that they want answered? >> reporter: charlie, there are a lot of them. specifically senator mccain has said he wants ambassador rice to explain why she did not mention that within 24 hours of the assault in benghazi that the intelligence community knew that there were links to al qaeda. as you remember, in five different television appearances, she said there was no evidence that the attack was preplanned. now senator mccain has said she misled the public. ambassador rice says she
and ayotte spoke with reporters. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible] >> they are significantly troubled -- [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] libya as well as other americans . [inaudible] >> i'm more disturbed now than it was before -- [inaudible] [inaudible] -- an al qaeda storm in the making. i'm very disappointed in our intelligence community. i think they failed in many ways. with a little bit of inquiry and curiosity, i think it would be pretty clear that to explain this episode is related to the video they created a mob that turned into a riot was far filled. at the end of the day we're going to get to the bottom of this, we have to have a system we can trust. and if you don't know what happened, just so you don't know what happened. people can push you to give explanations and you can say i don't want to give that information. here's what i can tell you. the american people got that information on 16 september. think about information from president obama days after. and the question is, should they have been giving the information at all? if you can do nothing but give that in
. rice will sit down with senators john mccain, lindsey graham, and kelly ayott. in recent days, senator mccain has softened his criticism as rice insists that she was relying on talking points from the intelligence community. last night, senator graham rejecting her defense but says he's open to today's meeting. >> she asked to meet with us and now we'll listen to what she has to say about her role in benghazi. the more i know about benghazi, the more upset i am that the consulate was even open on september 11th. when you look at the history and the reporting coming out of libya about the dangers, it should never have been open or heavily reinforced. after the attack, i think the story we were told about a spontaneous event caused by video where a mob turned into a riot is less credible than ever. >> she reportedly called the meeting. seems like a smart move. what do you think? >> well, i think it's a smart move for john mccain to take the meeting. they're boxed in. this is not a fight they want right now. it was a stupid fight to pick. they put themselves into a corner and now they've
angered john mccain, lindsey graham and kelly ayotte for her initial comments made on several tv networks that seemed to play down the role of al qaeda terrorists on the attack in benghazi, libya. that attack killed four americans, including u.s. ambassador chris stevens. rice maintains that she made it very clear, the intelligence information she had at the time was preliminary. senators are threatening to block her nomination if president obama chooses her to be his next secretary of state. >>> president obama and vice president joe biden will meet with mexico's president-elect today. pena kneeate toe has a new message. in an editorial in "the washington post" he said the u.s./mexico relations need to go beyond drugs and security concerns. topping his list, deepening economic ties with the united states. >>> the remains of former palestinian leader yasser arafat were exhumed this morning from a mausoleum in the west bank. many palestinians believe that arafat was poisoned by israel when he died in 2004. now, an international team of scientists will analyze tissue samples to see if they
cain, lindsey graham, kelly ayotte say they are more troubled now than before they had that meeting and all indications are they are still against the president's nominating rice for secretary of state. >> we are significantly troubled by many of the answers that we got and some that we didn't get. bottom line, i'm more disturbed now than i was before. >> apparently she misled the american public. i think that she would say that. she'd have to say that. >> cnn foreign affairs reporter elise labott is live in washington. really nice to see you elise. why are rice's critics saying they are more concerned now? >> well, zoraida, they're concerned because it turns out that there was some information in classified settings that ambassador rice told the senators about that did indicate that al qaeda possibly was involved, that this could be a terrorist attack. and when she sat down with those senators yesterday, what she said was that there were unclassified talking points provided by the cia that just talked about this so-called spontaneous protest. but at the same time, ambassador rice, as a mem
Search Results 0 to 38 of about 39 (some duplicates have been removed)